Swipe to go to another post.
Fuzzier and fuzzier that line mate, it would seem that now the can of worms is opened then society needs to deal with it.
Agreed. The question becomes how? :)
That my friend, is the four million dollar question. I have always thought that one needs to look for motivation, in any accusation. It can be a very power, albeit time consuming task that can help understand why people act in the fashion that they do.
My opinions on such things are coloured by my own personal experiences and observations, which has given me a bias. In saying that I am also willing to hear someone else out if they take an opposing view.
In any serious discussion I have found that this is the hardest part. That of being able to push aside the preconceived notions that you enter said conversation with. This extends to unconscious belief that one may or may not be aware of.
A conversation of two sides entrenching themselves in the fact that they are right and have to impress that upon the other participants, in my view, is a fruitless exercise in futility.
Perhaps a part of the answer lies in there someplace?
Maybe.. Or there is the possibility that men and women are naturally sexually attracted to Eachother. So we are actually creating laws based on when that attraction is one sided.
you find it "odd",no Liberals are commenting on your post?
taking what is not yours or freely given
whatever label they may have or don't have
They will. Give it Time. :)
You exemplify my point.
It is a slippery slope dw. But...unwanted touching, comments made about a persons body (you have great ****, gretchen) offering job perks for submission, talking about sexual prowless when the conversation is unwanted, etc., etc.
When flirting is one sided, it is not wanted. You can detect that from the initial flirt.
As far as initiating personal relationships at work? If it happens, then it should always be kept away from the job. I know of successful relationships that began at the workplace. Unsuccessful ones, too.
But...bottom line, you go to work, to work. What people choose to do on their own time, is no ones business. But...it has to be a mutual choice.
I would like to think that everyone here knows exactly what is and isnt sexual harassment.
“You look pretty today” with a creepy smile. “Sexual harassment”?
Say it in my personal space, when ive asked you not to, then, yes.
I suspect that they indeed do, but I also suspect that the many definitions of the many people who contribute may be at odds with one another :)
Great post and you totally described my work environment. I work in a building with hundreds of women yet any kind of interaction, even talking other than saying hello etc in passing is actively discouraged and flirting is a huge no no. I really aren't interested in dating apps but I can see why they are the only way people meet up.
Those 268 settlements were for all incidents of discrimination reported to the OOC, not just sexual, but no breakdown or details have been published and many may not even be reported. From what I gather, only two members of Congress vote on approving the settlements, so other members of Congress may not even know the details. As this is taxpayer money, we should have the information of what complaints were made, against who, and what settlements were paid. That alone would effectively term limit some members of Congress, eh?
As far as your question, I think it's impossible to ignore attractions to people one works with and, as you pointed out, we often know these people far better than anyone met elsewhere simply because of the sheer amount of time that may be spent together at work, and sometimes more intimately due to the nature of the work. This presents problems for many due both to fraternization policies and the possibility of harassment claims. I would think doing so today would be akin to walking a minefield in many work environments. Should two people decide to tiptoe their way through, and the relationship ends, someone may find they have stepped on a mine. Even in states where both parties must acquiesce, I can easily see taped evidence being used due to the proliferation of workplace cameras today. These could be taken completely out of context if a relationship began of mutual consent.
The longer I live, the more thankful I am I am not just starting out in today's world.
Me too. :)
No matter if i agree with you or not (in this case i do) you write so eloquently, bo.
Thank you, Carla.
The only two relationships I've ever been in both started in work environments. Like you, I wouldn't like to be starting out in today's world.
Excepting co-op in HS at a government office and tutoring in college, I have never worked in structured and regulated environments (and frankly, I barely survived those). I have primarily worked in a small, family-owned business and been self-employed. In those, I have worked almost exclusively with men and mostly in traditionally male positions. Except when dealing with customers, it was very...casual is as good word as I can come up with, I suppose. Someone used to a corporate environment would likely see 'abuses' daily. What would be a minefield in a corporate environment was often precisely what made doing a crappy job easier or the workday bearable in difficult conditions.
You'd hate my work environment then, hundreds of people jammed into small cubicles with so many rules and directives, every keystroke you enter on your computer being recorded, the threat of jail just for looking at an unauthorised file, unable to talk to those near you...well other than saying hello etc. I spend most of the day with my iPod on listening to music which only makes me feel more detached from my environment. I'd love a real job again, but jobs are so hard to get at the moment.
I couldn't do it. Seriously...I could not do that. Hell, I cannot even do a regular office environment, much less one as dystopian as that sounds. Just thinking about it depresses me...sending humongous thought hugs to you across the ocean and through the ether, Oz. Ya know, maybe we should work on doing some of our Oz and Boz for Dummies books for real.
Yes I know how you feel, I do it because it's the only regular income I can get at the moment but given that my personality is completely diametrically opposed to this kind of environment, it's a constant battle to stay sane, especially going home to an empty house at the end of it. Some days I think I'm gonna lose my mind. It's difficult to explain to anyone. I'm just lucky that I'm good with numbers and I can kinda switch off when I'm there... but every day I feel like it takes a piece of my soul. Still it beats living on welfare and I couldn't do that. But for a bit of a lefty like me, this environment is so conservative and restrictive it'd make the righties pee themselves lol!! i think only my military training gave me a chance of working there and cope with it. It's often like boot camp all over again.
Thanks a heap for thinking of me. Well at least at boot camp it made me feel like I was a guy...you know, running, and working out, and lifting things and running through the jungle blowing stuff up.. but here, i just type and crunch numbers and there's no burning up of calories or building muscle...its like drink spring water all shift or risk sprouting man **** lol... nooo i work out a couple of hours a day after work to protect myself from that kind of insantity Lol and yes, I can see many potential "for dummies" books just waiting to be written :)
Whenever you want to collaborate, just holler.
If an interaction is wanted than none of this becomes an issue
And how would one know if it was wanted?
If the person you're interacting with reciprocates
Reciprocated to what? What’s the first move? Isn’t that first move in itself sexual harassment?
I stay 10 feet away from the opposite **** at work..
Give the standard "Good morning"..."Have a good day".
I have zero intentions of doing anything sexually harassing at work or anywhere else..
I'm not giving anyone the slightest chance of being able to falsely accuse me of something..
I don't give out compliments as easily any more, I think twice about it now.
I'm still able to freely drink coffee, so it'll be okay.
Funny how walking on eggshells has become the norm.
Yep...That's just the way it is now.
Hey, would love your take as to how Agenda 21 applies to this topic. Depopulation.. you know. Actually I’ll start a new topic. Though likely to die quickly. :)
Send me the link when you post it, please.
It is tied into A21 (and depopulation)...all of the SJ causes are. Ironically, the push-back is coming largely from people who know little to nothing of A21, and is resulting in a growing acceptance of the very things it purports to combat, and that were largely already a non-issue here. A great deal of the focus has been on breaking the "binary of family and religion" among the religious right in America. Conservative Americans have basically been the one demographic in the West they haven't run roughshod over, and that despite quietly enlisting the clergy as their henchmen.
Needless to say, we are heading into interesting times. ;)
Love you. :)
**** that, I say what I think and be damned with them. Then again, I am a fairly nice bloke, and much of what I think is not so much offensive as it is challenging.
I am also very modest, especially about how charming I am :)
Back on December 23rd of 1983 while attending a Christmas party where the blue collar and white collar workers of the corporation I worked at were all at the same Christmas party held at the VFW during the late afternoon in the town we worked in.... where I met my future fiancé who I had never seen or interacted with at work BECAUSE he worked on the bottom floor in the machine shop of our company and I worked on the top floor of only interacting with wicked smaaaat college educated bosses and fellow employees working on the top floor.
He as a young guy machine shop worker at our company (my age), kept FLIRTING with me at the bar that afternoon, telling me how he would see me walking by the machine shop and how pretty he thought I was blah, blah, blah...where I WAS NOT "offended" at all OR thought he was "sexually harassing" me by him complimenting me...we eventually started dating and then became engaged at a young age to be married, but he passed away in a car accident.
My worries about all the latest revelations and accusations coming out on a DAILY basis now of scumbag men in power sexually assaulting/sexually harassing women...is that it will also result in our GOOD, DECENT MEN in our country who will no longer feel they can innocently flirt, compliment a woman or ask them out on a date BECAUSE of the fear of them being ACCUSED of "sexually assaulting/harassing" that woman for innocently flirting with then or telling them they looked pretty.
Every dime of those settlement dollars should be returned to the taxpayers.
In the future, when these filthy pig politicians are ready to pay off to keep people quiet, they should pay with their own money.
Men have been chasing women since the beginning of time. I understand there are lines not to be crossed - but the PC crowd does not. They will shame mans natural desire to be with a woman. How do you think attempting to change human nature will work out?
I agree with all you wrote Bud.
There's not a doubt in mind that Clinton, Pelosi, Shumer, Reid, Obama, McCain, Bush 43, McConnell and ESPECIALLY Paul Ryan ALL knew about this TAX PAYER funded "fund" that was secretly put into place 20 years ago to be able to pay off the women and men who were sexually harassed/abused by their elected peers/pervs in DC.
I mean come on, how did Paul Ryan(especially) NOT know about this secret government account that paid out 17 million in sexual harassment settlements over the past 20 years??(Clearly Ryan did know about this account).
Eh yet Ryan, his fellow RINO's and lifer Democrats who have put our country 20 TRILLION in debt over the past 8 years with their "solution" to all that ails our country BEING spending even more of OUR tax dollars as the answer....actually think that WE THE PEOPLE are stupid, where they actually think the informed WE THE PEOPLE will believe their math and numbers on the economy and healthcare instead of President Trump's evaluations of numbers as being a successful self made BILLIONAIRE businessman and them all only/always becoming 1%ers themselves as POLITICIANS.
What our country's "know it all" DERANGED liberals don't know, is that President Trump chose NOT to be paid as our country's CIC.... he as our CIC instead donates his salary as OUR President to many charities.
You are correct - AGAIN!
Damn, you are one smart lady!
WHY isn't our "msm" news asking the tough questions about this account put into place 20 years ago to be able to pay off the victims working under the pervs in DC???? Has any reporter even asked Paul Ryan this question about his knowledge of this PERV account, that he clearly knew about?
Nope INSTEAD the freakin' "headlines" all over the internet as well on TV by our "msm" is all about bashing President Trump for him using a "racial slur" while referring to Elizabeth Warren as Pocahontas, smh....where these news "journalists" all knew/know damn well WHY he referred to Warren as Pocahontas(not a racial slur). These journalist on the progressive left actually care more about President Trump calling Warren Pocahontas than they care about reporting the TRUTH to the American people as to WHY he referred to her as Pocahontas...which is that Elizabeth Warren as a white, privileged woman growing up in America, did in FACT flat out LIE about being a Native American on her application to get her job as a "minority" to teach at Harvard.
Even though President Trump is getting the typical negative press about his "racial slur"(lol) all over the internet and by our country's"msm" news...I believe it was a calculated move by President Trump to purposely refer to Warren as Pocahontas during that ceremony... BECAUSE he knew in todays era of 24/7 news and technology, that people would be curious thus googling WHY he would refer to her as Pocahontas...therefore people finding out that Elizabeth Warren was in fact NOT a Native American, she was IN FACT a white liberal minded woman who grew up in a wealthy family...who flat out blatantly LIED about being a Native American just to further her own career as an advocate for minorities....ah the irony of her actions is only lost on liberals.
You're so right!
We gotta figure out a way to prod politicians, MSM, somebody to followup on stuff like that perv account. It's simply not acceptable!
Bud, there's no way that Pelosi, Shumer, Ryan and McConnell could NOT have know about this secret PERV account put aside to pay off the victims of their perverted politicians on BOTH SIDES.
Do you or Bozette know if any reporter thus far has even asked any of those 4 if they personally knew about this PERV account that WE THE PEOPLE were funding with our tax dollars, but just didn't know we were?
It's so troubling for me that BEHIND OUR BACKS as tax payers, that a portion of our tax dollars were actually appropriated by our Government back then by our "leaders" to fund/PAY OFF the victims of their fellow DC pals who were scumbag perverts..... INSTEAD of them as our "leaders" doing the RIGHT THING back then of reporting these pervs to the police, as well as forcing these DC pervs to resign, as well as making these DC pervs as wealthy DC politicians to pay out their own pockets the financial settlements their victims agreed to.
This is a huge scandal...but nope instead our country's
"msm", celebrities and our liberal nit wit SWJ's have become even more UNHINGED/DEGRANGED because President Trump referred to a member of Congress as Pocahontas, thus it NOW being "a racist slur" towards Native Americans!!!lol!!! Eh soon Disney will be forced by the PC left to change the name of their iconic children's movie Pocahontas BECAUSE this iconic figure in our American history is NOW an offensive "racial slur"...yeah only OFFENSIVE to the soy boys and feminists in our country who ruin everything great in our country by being OFFENDED by EVERYTHING!
These nuts on the left today who can't accept the results of the 2016 election because their candidate LOST therefore them rioting in the streets etc... ARE the same cry baby brats who as kids wanted/demanded a TROPHY even though their team lost or even if they sucked at playing a sport, thus their parents back then coddling their UNATHLETIC snowflake brats, and then COMPLAINING to these sports league that keeping score was hurting their child's feelings (who tried their best), and their kid was DISAPPOINTED because they did not get a trophy at the end season as the team who WON did, where it really hurt their spoiled BRAT little Johnny's FEELINGS... thus creating this culture in our great country of kids "feeling" they too should be WINNERS and given a TROPHY even when they're the LOSERS.
Agreed - 100%
Seems like your having trouble expressing your true feelings today Gronk. Let go, and tell us how you really feel!
Eh I was riled/fired up when I wrote all that because my Marine veteran/hunter dad was over that day to check out the deer my husband shot that was hanging on a tree in our back yard.....where my elderly dad once in our home saw the picture poster board of his grandson being a Captain on his HS team on display, and then while in my kitchen also read the acceptance letter on our fridge of his grandson being accepted to his 1st choice of where he wanted to attend college and play baseball as well....which actually trigged my elderly dad to start talking about those "ingrate football players in the NFL who keep disrespecting me, my country and our country's flag etc."...then him continuing on to talk about what it was like when he was kid growing up during the Depression etc., and going on about how now we have all these "pansy ****" kids in our country who all feel they deserve a trophy etc. etc. etc.
Which my dad(now elderly) was once again SPOT ON with his take/opinions about today's world and the youth of today in our country...however my elderly dad expressing his opinions NOW, even though being SPOT ON, does so now in a much more crass "offensive" manner with his choice of words at 79 years old........whereas my elderly dad actually says the F word now in front of his daughters when referring to Democrats.
Yeah so anyways....... my dad's COMMON SENSE opinions, did get me all riled/fired up after he left my home, thus my post lol!!!
One day, in the distant future, people will reminisce about the wisdom they learned from you!
You have a terrific family Gronk. Smart, dedicated, tight. May God richly bless you all this Christmas Season and beyond!
What is this post even saying? Don't rape people. Don't jack off in front of people unrequested. Don't touch anyone's **** unrequested. Don't yell at people on the street. Don't try to put anything into anyone unrequested. Don't kiss anyone you aren't in a relationship with on the mouth. Is it really that hard for you people to understand how to avoid sexual assault? Do you people genuinely struggle with basic levels of urge repression?
Something as simple as a poorly told joke, or asking a coworker out on a date can be considered sexual harassment. Sexual harassment and assault are two different things. I probably should have worded it more carefully.
An inappropriate joke can be sexual harassment. Asking a coworker on a date isn't sexual whatsoever, it's not fitting actions during work hours, but it's not contemptible because it's 'sexual harassment'.
it's actually super clear cut what is and isn't sexual harassment, but people just love to get up in arms nowadays so whatever.
When I was young, people touched others and it was a joke, it was done as a laugh...I suppose the seriousness of the touching depends on how serious the recipitent takes it, if they think it's funny then it's no crime...today things are different as crimes have become more serious and because of this, even minor sexual crimes are taking more seriously...
OK. It has always been disturbing to me, how easily a person's life can be become a 'nightmare' over a false accusation. Some of these recent claims of sexual harassment and assault, are incidences that many women would just roll their eyes about, smack a hand away, or sometimes even 'laugh' off. I'm pretty sure there aren't many women who haven't experienced an unwelcome touch or kiss.
Some of these recent accusations are much worse than that, of course. What is considered sexual assault or harassment seems to be a little murky just now, and is why I'm glad people are talking about it.
Yup. Very murky. Plus you have the “Criminal” side and the “Business” side. One may not get you locked up but it will get you fired.
It is only false accusations that one need worry about, I think, if they don't make lewd comments or touch and grab another at work, in places that could clearly be deemed as sexual.
I don't chase women, never did never will. Women give out subtle vibes that they have some interest in you. It's up to men to understand those vibes and make a connection with them.
As far as where to meet women, I would say, intro from a friend, gym, and yes even a grocery store.
Online dating site? meh most lie about themselves, both men and women. Not sure why, eventually you meet and then say WTF?
Work is a NO NO. I worked for a fortune 500 company many years ago, and our VP hired a few hot women. One I knew from a few years back, she was nothing but trouble and she was after me and I had just gotten married. I never lead on to her that I was interested in her and I wasn't, but she was really hot.
Great post again.
Thanks Synyster! :)
It does pose a problem especially for men. I met my wife at work. we've been married for 18 years now. Having said that where it concerns the female coworkers I'm around I make sure to be almost robot like with them. I don't tell them jokes that I've heard. I don't talk about my private life with them. As a man in a world wth hair trigger law suits I find that the only safe thing to do is to deal with women in the office like inanimate objects. With a straight out business only manner.
Sometimes there is a fine line between what's considered flirting and where it crosses the line into sexual harassment but sexual harassment is usually fairly obvious when it happens and sadly it probably will always be a plague on people how do you stop it
I don't have an excessive interest in ****, no targets towards "dating" nor finding the right woman who'd make my life complete, so that all but pretty much ensures my mind and hands won't head for an area that'd get my butt in legal trouble. I have flirted but online only, with those whom I felt could take a wink, kiss, or hug without freaking the flock out; so far, no sirens in the background.
"Unwanted" means they told the person ONCE to knock it off.
After that, if the person continues, it's harassment.
Under which Law? In most cases the first “offense” is enough.
Under most laws, at least in the US.
If the person does not tell you it is unwanted ... how do you know?
(unless there is, say, a company policy in place saying it is ALWAYS wrong. But that is a private policy, and not a law.)
Tis true to a point. A whole lot of laws out there. :) Also fascinating that you bring this up. Congress is not officially considered a “Buisness”. Nor a “Private Entity”. Therefore the only things that truly apply to Government Employees is Law.. Amiwrong?
I don't know about Congressional employees ... but many government employees are covered by union contracts. Though I've not seen a union contract that specifically addresses harassment, they do have specific grievance/complaint processes.
I'm betting Congressional Office Staff don't have union contracts, though - since they are hired by the Congressperson. Maybe that practice should be changed, so the staff is hired through the General Accounting Office or some general federal agency.
I think that the industry has its own set of politics and that Hollywood is embarking on a diabolical agenda and when people don’t conform or if they go against the grain then they are punished in their private lives and are potentially ruined. People aren’t famous for their raw talent anymore. If you are willing to sell your soul, be a puppet and convert the masses, then they might make you a star. If you grow a brain and speak out then you get slapped with a sexual harrassment case.
I think what's going on in Hollyweird is far more than sexual harassment,
They will never get to the bottom of it, they'll expose some of it, but only if said people have done something against protocol, or else they will make it look like they are doing something, but in fact they won't. This has been going on for years.
So Apparrently Congress passed a measure requiring an “Anti-Harassment” Class. Wonder how many more tax payer dollars will have to be shelled out for that one?
Do you seriously not know the difference between friendship and sexual assault? Do you not understand people in positions of power use the power for evil purposes sometimes? Do you not see that two people striking up a friendship or relationship isn't the same as one party being harmed, assaulted, or harassed by the other?
So. Anybody in any higher posiition in Life than anybody else is from here on out banned from flirting with anybody who makes less money than them. ? Is that the fix?
I should expand on that. Some guy. Poor guy living in the ghetto apt complex or the trailer park, should be able to get away with more than the CEO on the other side of the tracks.?
That's not remotely what I said.
When I used to work ,we all flirted and had fun.There was no harm done.If it goes to far.Say something at the time it happens.Not
30 years later.
If one doesn't own what they touch, nor is responsible for handling it, nor is invited to touch another's property, then you keep your goddamned hands the hell off the **** property - It's just that goddamned simple. Where it relates to verbal harrassment or non-physical inuendo, then simply STFU or divert your focus, or both!
Good post, btw :)
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